The following is a transcript of the NCUA Board meeting for May 20
Kyle Hauptman
Good morning, everyone, and welcome. I call this meeting of the NCUA board to order. In addition to those joining us in the boardroom today, I want to note that, for the record, today's meeting is open to the public through a live webcast as well. For anyone watching online, if you'd like to view the closed captioning of the meeting, please click on the little CC icon located in the lower left corner of the WebEx window. You may also change the layout to one of your choosing by clicking the Layout option on the top right side of your screen. Our recommended viewing option for this meeting is the stack view. Before we begin the formal agenda, we have a couple of things to mention. Most importantly, we always Chairman Harper well on his recovery from back surgery. We look forward to his return to regular duties in July. There are only two board members participating in today's meeting. This has happened before for various reasons, and I'm sure it will happen again. While out on medical leave, Chairman Harper, like the rest of us, they get some good news. NCUA tied for number nine is the best places to work in the federal government for mid -sized agencies, and I believe there's like 30 of them. This is based on the federal employee viewpoint survey produced by the Partnership for Public Service with Boston Consulting Group. In particular, NCUA's Office of the CFO, who is presenting today at the board meeting, placed number five in the best places to work sub -compliance department, and there are a lot more of those. So, well done to Eugene and your team. All I want to say is you're number five, you got four more spots to go, okay? Eugene got his name in the Washington Post about that ranking. After the Silicon Valley Bank collapse, 2023, Eugene Schied and his team assessed how a similar exposure could impact federal credit unions and how they would ensure money was available if a credit union did fail. It was an exercise they say they handled easily because the team had reorganized themselves to share workloads better after the pandemic. She listened to their suggestions and put more emphasis on shortcuts and automations to ease the workload. There's no magic innovation, he said. It was just going through, having discussions. But to me, that is good management, and leaders of these agencies, just like politicians, sometimes get too much blame and credit, and so you got to take the wins while you're there. Chairman Harper, even though he's recovering, he is the leader of the agency, so this was good news for him while he was out. So congratulations to you guys, and we hope to see Todd fairly soon. I know he's recovering well. Board member Odesko, would you like to say a few thanks?
Tanya Otsuka
Yes, thanks, Vice Chair Hauptman. I wanna echo Vice Chair Hauptman's points on that. We're sending Chair Harper all the well wishes as he recovers and we're looking forward to his return. And I also wanna share my congratulations for the NCUAs receipt of the award as one of the top 10 best -sized government agencies to work for and the Office of the Chief Economist for fifth best subcommodment, which is really an accomplishment. Eugene and Melissa, Melissa's gonna be presenting today later. This is a testament to your leadership and your team's dedication to our mission. And everybody at the agency has helped make the NCUA a place where people are proud to come to work every day. While there's always more work to be done to improve and grow as an agency, and we will continue to do that work. And as so many of you know, that work for an organization is always ongoing. It is still great to be recognized and I congratulate the dedicated staff of the agency on this achievement. So thank you, everyone.
Kyle Hauptman
Okay we have one other thing to mention before we get into the agenda with the CFO's office. I'd like to mention the changes to NCUA’s call report. So there we go. So I wanted to use this meeting to talk about NCUA’s recent decision to require credit billions with assets over one billion to publicly publish their revenue from overdraft fees and fees for insufficient funds. Say no one likes paying these fees. I pay to myself but anytime you wake up and you have and you owe x dollars that day but you have less than x available there are only a series of bad options. We are pressuring credit unions to limit what is often the least bad option for members under financial stress. The reason for making the comments today is we haven't discussed these changes at a board meeting and we don't have to but because every time I go to an event I can't go anywhere without hearing the same questions. Why are you doing this to us? Do you realize how harmful it is to members? So my answers are I wish NCUA was not doing it especially on such short notice and finally yes I understand how harmful it is to consumers and to credit unions. I found out about this burdensome requirement in January. In lieu of repeal I have suggested several ways to make it less damaging to both credit unions and to our insurance fund. For example the same data could be collected in a manner where it's available to NCUA examiners but published in aggregates. We could also listen to those pleading for adequate time to prepare and not publish the data. We could collect it now but not publish it until next year especially since it's been harder than expected by myself and others harder than expected to figure out what numbers are to use for each category. All of my views were rejected. Credit unions will now face reputational risk for data that neither they nor the NCUA knows to be correct. So it appears we're another agency mathematically incentivizing institutions to avoid serving low -income people. This policy is very clear don't serve the underserved. It's not that most low -income people have a lot of balanced checks but most people who have overdraft are low -income. That makes sense. We're now working against the Federal Credit Union Act which mentions credit unions are to create credit for those of modest means. Well it's not the rich that are going to worry about overdraft protection being removed. It's not those with secure high -paying jobs that are going to suffer from further reduction in offers for free checking accounts. Make no mistake NCUA’s requirement is designed to pressure those fees downwards. Since one of the main reasons credit unions want more time to comply is to lower those fees and try to raise revenue from other people and to overall reevaluate their business model. We've seen this movie before. The bill had a provision on debit cards that contained government price setting. A provision that mathematically made it less profitable to serve low -income people. The outcome was as painful as it was predictable. Free checking fell away significantly as new requirements kicked in for direct deposits, higher minimum balances, etc. Anyone who can't meet those requirements has to pay monthly account fees or lose access to the banking system and become unbanked. It doesn't seem odd for anyone to support regulations that make it infeasible to serve low -income people and then talk about financial inclusion and lament the millions of Americans who are unbanked. It reminds us of the story about the guy that killed his own parents and asked for leniency because he's an orphan. Can we guarantee the shift is better off because it is? Nope. And yet we're adding a regulatory burden. Two beneficiaries of this misguided interference are two interest groups. One, those who benefit politically and two, members of the media who get to write clickbait articles that are often devoid of financial or business literacy. We've already seen this happen. It goes without saying that none of the people supportive of these policies will be out there with their own money to offer you a better deal when you're a lawyer. And that's what's going to happen. Just like in 2010, it's a mathematical certainty. Overdraft protection in particular will become less common. Overdraft is when a credit human pays part of your bills for you when your account doesn't have enough. Anyone in a banking institution will tell you the most distraught customers are not those whose bills were paid for overdraft and paid a fee. As much as they don't like that $30 fee. Now, the most distraught customers or goes upset that a bill wasn't paid due to insufficient funds, forcing them to pay much higher costs. Anyone would rather pay $30, would rather pay $30 than a $500 government fee. What about someone in my position who owed $4 ,000 to my state government and it's a $1 ,000 fee the next day if I didn't pay that day, right? DC is 25% automatically and then they add interest charges from there, okay? If I had $39 ,80 in my account, I would desperately want that to be paid. I'd pay the $30 fee instead of $1 ,000. If my account was a few bucks short of $4 ,000, would I rather pay $30 overdraft or be forced to pay the extra $1 ,000 to the government? Remember, I was short of cash to start with. The $1 ,000 fee didn't help. I remember years ago, I was living in an expensive city, LA, on $27 ,000 a year salary while paying my student loans. Went to go to work one morning and saw my car was gone. I called the police, turns out it wasn't stolen. It was towed for late registration. Back then, I was constantly enjoying payments, trying to avoid the highest costs of being broke. The highest costs were and are invariably charged by the same governments that lecture the private sector. Governments charge fees and use coercive tactics that are significantly worse than anything labeled a junk fee. And yet, we rarely hear about governments' fees and actions from self -proclaimed consumer protection advocates. Anyway, about my car that was towed, I wound up paying six times total the registration fee after paying the government for impound costs, other charges. But I was lucky. I had a salary job, at least, and I could call work and say I wasn't coming in that day. Millions of Americans in that situation would lose a day's pay. Then there are those whose government had towed their car or put a boot in it, and their car's gone, or they can't use it, and they're late to work, which is a parole violation. Of course, you would pay $30 to avoid that. That is the real world reality that people live in every day. Anyone whose account is slightly short of money would rather pay a $30 overdraft than miss the child support payment. That is the only way they can get visitation to see their child that year. That's the real world. I do agree there are only bad choices for anyone short of cash. There may be policies to make life more affordable and less inflationary. One thing Senator Schatz from Hawaii often says is, he calls the study that up to a third of late fees, credit cards, late fees overdraft, up to a third of them would go away if we had faster settlement. Meaning all the money coming your way was already accessible in your account. There are ways to alleviate this issue, and I assure both policies in the private sector create those. But there is a real world people live in, and there's only bad choices when you don't have enough money. But N2A's recent policy and overdrafts and NSC fees, NSF fees, is not among them. We can't pretend that artificially, government, artificially forcing down the price of something, won't have major negative effects. We also can't pretend that it makes sense for NUA to make interest rate risk our top supervisory priority the same year we're pushing credit unions away from non -interest incomes. Because no regulation or law passed by government repeals the laws of economics. That's it. Board Member Otsuka, would you like to make a few remarks?
Tanya Otsuka
Thank you, Vice Chair Hauptman. So I also wanted to speak a little bit about the overdraft and NSF fees. So I think the NCOA has a responsibility to make sure that we have a safe and sound system of cooperative credit. And we also have a mandate to ensure that credit unions are following all applicable laws. And I agree that credit unions, the purpose of credit unions are to serve those of modest means. I would like to see more credit unions serve more low income people, more underserved people, more people of modest means. The action that NCOA has taken over the years with respect to overdraft and fee income is consistent with those responsibilities. It's important for the NCOA to understand the data, both at the institution level and system wide. We need to make sure that it is transparent for credit unions, credit union members, and the public. Overdraft practices and fees should already be disclosed to members and in compliance with applicable laws. An over -reliance on overdraft and NSF fees adversely affects both members and their credit unions. Institutions that rely more on fee income can have greater concentration risk. And that is a significant concern. NCOA's supervisory priorities over the years have included overdrafts. In 2018 and 2019, NCOA examiners reviewed credit union overdraft practices, including opt -in disclosures and conducted transaction testing to verify that credit unions were complying with the applicable regulatory provisions. In 2022, examiners requested information about a credit union's policies and procedures governing its overdraft programs. In 2023, NCOA examiners started conducting reviews of overdraft website advertising, balance calculation methods, settlement processes, and more, excuse me, for federal credit unions with assets of 500 million or more. And I think that, again, that focus on both the safety and soundness side of things and the consumer protection side of things are equally important. Over the years, I have heard from so many consumers, including credit union members, about overdraft practices and fees. And Vice Chair Hartman did raise a lot of good points about how when you are just struggling to make ends meet, you may need to overdraft. But I've also heard from a lot of consumers about excessive overdrafts, overdrafting over and over and over again, pushing their account even further into the red. And so there needs to be some recognition that our agency has a responsibility to make sure that those practices are not happening. With respect to the reporting of the data on fee income, I think it's really important not to prejudge. We can't assume a narrative before assessing the data in aggregate. And I think that the public does have a right to know, members have a right to know what that fee income looks like. The agency needs to know from a system -wide safety and soundness perspective. And I know our staff is looking at that. But I do think it's important not to prejudge. I've heard a lot of concerns about what this means, whether there's going to be risk for institutions or not about the perception of their overdraft programs. A lot of that information is already disclosed. And again, members should know, member owners, this is important for member owners. There's also many credit unions who do not charge overdraft fees and who also are able to serve low -income people. I think really here, my focus is on how this is going to help members and how this is going to help us as an agency make sure that we can keep a safe and sound system of cooperative credit. And this is not, there is nothing in this that will, we are requiring a ban on overdraft. You know, I've also heard that these changes may have an impact on what credit unions do. Each credit union has a very different overdraft program, as you all know, as I know. But in the financial services sector over the past, five or so years, many institutions have started to get rid of overdraft. And so the market forces are already in play as well. So again, you know, I just, I want to emphasize that I don't think we should prejudge the data. I think we should see what the lay of the land looks like. And I look forward to reviewing it to get a better sense of what it looks like from a safety and soundness perspective and from a consumer protection standpoint. And I look forward to working with my fellow board members and with members of the public on whether any additional steps are necessary. But, you know, I think, I think it would be, it's a helpful exercise and one that I think our agency has a responsibility to look into. So thanks, Vice Chair Hoffman.
Kyle Hauptman
Thank you for those remarks and I completely agree on there are some unsavory practices out there ordering of payments, racking up fees that didn't have to happen, purposely structuring your transactions and running batches so that on a given day you got more fees incurred than you had to, 100% agree on that. I do, the market is changing and I have heard of that. Well, that's just a reason to say we shouldn't have to force or pressure people to if the market is already doing it, you can't have both opinions at once. But the market will change and better, like we said, faster payments, the financial system will change for the better as it has for the last, you know, 100 years. I do believe that the ones who say we don't want to charge overdraft, they just return more items. They just don't pay them if you're short. No one else is going to pay my bills for me indefinitely without some kind of compensation. So they just return more. So those examples that I gave would be there, plus if you ever gone through the mortgage process, the last thing you need right when you're trying to buy a home is a ding on your credit, like a late payment, you know. So instead of overdraft, they'll just do return your credit card payment and now you have a late payment. I can cost you a quarter point. In D .C., that would be $35 ,000 on the average mortgage, over the life of it. I appreciate those remarks. And that's now, I invite Melissa up here for the one official item of the day. We are going to get a report on the share insurance fund. The staff presenting is Melissa Loudon, Deputy Chief Financial Officer. Melissa, this is the first time you've done it by yourself.
Melissa Lowden OCFO
That this is the first time I've presented the share insurance fund quarterly. I've been at the board table before, but I usually have a co -presenter. So it's a little low.
Kyle Hauptman
All right. You are the name on the marquee. All right, let's do it. Good morning. What's up? Begin whenever you're ready.
Melissa Lowden OCFO
Okay, thanks. Good morning, Vice Chairman Hoffman and Board Member Oska. I'm pleased to present the 2024 first quarter statistics for the Share Insurance Fund. Before I begin, I'd like to mention the NCUA released its 2023 annual report, which is published on our agency's website. The report was again recognized with a certificate of excellence in accountability reporting. I want to thank our OCFO team, our partners in the Office of External Affairs and Communications, and other staff in the agency who contributed to making this an informative report on NCUA's programs, performance, and finances. Slide two. This table shows the fund's revenue and expense for the first quarter of 2024. For the quarter that ended March 31st, the fund recorded a net income of $68 .1 million. A few highlights are as follows. Total income was $133 .7 million for the quarter, mainly from investment income of Treasury securities. Investment income increased 6% compared to the prior quarter and increased 47% compared to the first quarter of 2023. Operating expenses were $59 .7 million for the primarily due to the overhead transfer for agency operating expenses. The provision for insurance losses reserve expense increased by $8 .1 million during the quarter. Slide three. This table shows the fund's balance sheets as of March 31st, 2024, compared to the previous quarter. As of March 31st, total assets were valued at $21 .6 billion, of which 98% were funds held with the U .S. Treasury in cash, overnight investments, and long -term Treasury notes. A few highlights to take away from this slide are that the fund recognized the capitalization deposits receivable of $212 .3 million. In addition, accounts payable and other liabilities include a refund of $238 .8 million to credit unions with declining insured shares. This resulted in a net refund of about $26 .5 million and reflects the net decline in insured shares during the second half of 2023. Cumulative results of operations increased by $8 .3 million due to $68 .1 million in net income offset by an unrealized loss on investments of $59 .8 million. Slide four. The fund records an insurance program liability comprised of general and specific reserves. This is a contingency to cover anticipated future losses resulting from insured credit union failures. Each quarter we assess the reserve needs for potential and actual credit union failures to make a reasonable estimate of potential losses. During the first quarter the reserve balance increased by $8 .5 million primarily due to the increase in general reserve. The reserve balance totaled $217 .5 million and is comprised of $7 .3 million for specific reserves and $210 .2 million for general reserves. Slide five. Through the first quarter of 2024, there were no credit union failures that incurred losses to the fund. Slide six. As of March 31, 2024, the fund had over $22 .2 billion at par value invested in treasury securities with maturities until May 2030. The weighted average life of securities held by the fund is 2 .2 years. The weighted average yield of the securities increased 10 basis points from the last quarter to 2 .43%. During the first quarter of 2024, four treasury notes matured for $650 million. These securities had yields ranging from 0 .2% to 2 .26%. As of last night, the portfolio balance invested in overnights now stands at $5 .6 billion at a rate of 5 .37 basis points. Slide seven. The equity ratio is updated on a semi -annual basis. As of December 31, 2023, the equity ratio was 1 .30% and was calculated using an insured share base of $1 .7 trillion. The blue line across the chart represents the normal operating level. This was last set and approved by the board in December 2021 and the current level remains unchanged at 1 .33%. Slide 8. The projected equity ratio for June 30th, 2024 is 1 .24%, a decrease of six basis points from the current equity ratio. The projected decline is due primarily to the forecasted insured share growth. The projected equity ratio is calculated on the same basis as the actual equity ratio and the formula and calculation are shown on this slide. Slide 9. This slide shows the percentages of insured shares by camels codes from 2019 through the first quarter of 2024. In the graph, the dark blue represents camels coded four or five, the gray represents camels coded three and the light blue represents camels coded one or two. During the quarter, the percentage of insured shares at credit unions camels coded three, four or five increased while camels coded one or two decreased. The table below the graph shows the number of credit unions by camels codes. The total number of credit unions as of March 31st was 4 ,578. This is a decrease of 44 credit unions from the prior quarter. Slide 10. This slide compares credit unions camels code by asset size. The camels code four or five credit unions are shown on the left -hand side and camels coded three credit unions are shown on the right -hand side of the graph. Looking at the 125 credit unions, camels coded four or five, most of these credit unions continue to have assets of 100 million or less. For those with assets greater than 100 million, there were two additional credit unions in the 100 to 500 million range. For those greater than 500 million, there was one more credit union from December 2023 to March 2024. During the quarter, both assets and insured shares for credit unions camels coded four or five increased. Considering the 760 credit unions camels coded three, 92% of these credit unions have assets less than 500 million. During the quarter, there was a decrease in credit unions with assets less than 100 million and an increase in credit unions with assets in the 100 million to 500 million and greater than 500 million ranges for camels coded three. During the quarter, both assets and insured shares for credit unions camels coded three increased. Slide 11. The supplemental slides provided with this presentation include more investment information to help interested parties better understand the operations of the fund. Thank you for your time. This concludes my presentation, and I'm happy to answer your questions.
Kyle Hauptman
well done for your first and any or any time rewind back 2022 the NCUA increased its share of investments and overnight funds with a goal of at least four billion dollars in overnights last year at this time we'd gotten 2 .4 billion in overnight funds at that time earning about 5% and today said 5 .5 billion in overnight funds earning about 5 .4 percent and looking forward you know we saw the Fed its latest meeting kept rates steady again at its range of five and a quarter to five and a half the stuff was easier before the financial crisis when they just picked one number right to talk about the big change in the last few months is that expectations for interest rate cuts have faded considerably for those selling money i .e. rent to get out to the U .S. Treasury that brings some good news interest rates of the price of money and the share insurance fund is solely a seller of money so like any seller of anything high prices are good so that's the part of the numerator in our equity ratio and while the Fed seems to be done hiking interest rates credit unions continue to deal with balance sheet challenges to the last few years of rapid rate hikes the percentage of insured shares and credit unions with camels four and five that's our lowest two ratings inched higher to 0 .35% from 0 .28 the if we throw in camels rating three and worse we're go from 7 .8 up to 8 .6 these do not seem like large jumps but historically they do usually mean something but credit unions have continued to form well they are resilient they have been resilient in 2023 there were only three credit union failures that cost us money totaling just 1 .4 million in losses and as of this report there have been no credit union failures that cost money in 2024 but of course the insurance business is about unpredictable events share insurance like any insurance is there for the chaotic times that often follow years of calm so today we heard from the CFO's office they project a SIF equity ratio to be 1 .24 when we recalculated in June that's the projection although as we sit here today the ratio remains at 1 .30 so why is it falling as my colleague so ably explained much of that downward move is to the projected 5% growth in insured shares so that's the denominator getting bigger which in general is a good thing we at NCU I like to see steady growth at credit unions that is to say steady growth is good as a standalone variable we're aware that the quality of growth matters a lot credit union liquidity continues to be an issue like to remind everyone that credit unions can and should have access to a range of liquidity sources including NCU a central liquidity facility so the small credit unions out there that may not have liquidity options set up I strongly encourage those institutions to do so you can talk to your examiner you thought your league talk to your corporate credit unit there are ways to handle a short -term liquidity challenge and survive to fight another day if you could see a liquidity Christ coming because if you could see a liquidity crisis coming it wouldn't be called a crisis before I conclude my remarks I've got one question so most of what we're pleased that the fund is taking advantage of high short -term rates all that money and overnight's other short -term paper but obviously the pendulum swings the other direction someday how do we prepare for possible rate cuts butterfed
Melissa Lowden OCFO
Sure, thanks for the question. The aim of the funds investment committee is to pursue safety, liquidity, and yield. The portfolio is comprised of readily available overnight funds and term investments that mature at regular intervals. The committee does not try to time the market and instead we rely on a latter strategy. In the current quarter, the committee reinvested all maturities back into the treasury ladder. These longer maturities create added earning stability and lock in higher yields if rates decline. That concludes my response.
Kyle Hauptman
appreciate the comment about not timing the market for more money. There's been a long spectrum trying to time the market that has ever been gained. That concludes my remarks. Over to board member Otsuko.
Tanya Otsuka
Thank you. And thanks, Melissa, for the briefing. So as we all know, NCO's job is to protect members' shares at credit unions. And we can't fulfill that mission of protecting our system of cooperative credit without an adequately funded share insurance fund. So I'm encouraged by the strong performance of the share insurance fund. We continue to see a trend of fewer failing credit unions, combined with the higher yields, which have resulted in substantial net income for the fund year over year. Our investment income has grown by approximately $40 million in the fourth quarter of 2023. The fund had its highest yield in a decade at 2 .33%. And this quarter surpassed that at 2 .43%. Our investment strategy of investing in a 10 -year treasury ladder that distributes our net income evenly in investments with varying maturities continues to be prudent and successful. This will provide balance to the weighted average life, the fund, and ensure more stable returns in the future, particularly if interest rates fall over time. However, I still have some concerns that the share insurance fund has been below the normal operating level since June 2019. So one of my questions is, Melissa, can you speak to what contributes to the downward pressure on that equity ratio and why the projected number can sometimes be different than the actual ratio we calculated in June?
Melissa Lowden OCFO
Sure. Yeah, thanks for the question. So the decline between the year -end equity ratio of 1 .30 percent and the June projection of 1 .24 percent reflects historical trend. And the June equity ratio is typically lower than the year -end equity ratio because projected insured share growth is usually more robust earlier in the year. With steady earnings and few losses to the fund, the main driver with the equity ratio calculation will be insured shares. The June 2024 projection is based on an estimated 5 percent increase in insured shares. And all other things equal, if the actual insured share growth falls short of 5 percent, the actual June 30 equity ratio may be higher. This concludes my response.
Tanya Otsuka
Thank you. Thank you for that. And I think I mentioned this last quarter as well, but another concern is the percentage of insured shares held by the camels code three credit unions. This percentage has more than triple between 2021 and 2023 more than doubled from 2022 to 2023, and the trend continues into this quarter. So, you know, this percentage of shares held by camel three credit unions is almost has grown almost a full percentage point in first quarter 2024 alone, even though we did see a decrease in the number of credit unions rated as a three or last quarter. So, you know, there's a bit of fluctuation going on but it still seems like it's a concern. Do you see any implications for the fund if this trend continues.
Melissa Lowden OCFO
Sure, thanks for the question. To calculate general reserves, the NCUA uses an econometric reserve model and the model uses external economic predictors and also individual credit union specific data, call report data, camels code data to predict the probability of failure and estimated expected loss. So based on the information that we get from that model, the SIF records an insurance program liability. Increasing percentages of insured chairs in camels coded three, four, five could pose higher risk in the system and increase SIF reserve needs. That concludes my response.
Tanya Otsuka
Thank you. While there's many signs that show stability and growth with the share insurance fund now is the time as opposed to during a crisis to think about what can go wrong and how to safeguard against those scenarios I think Vice Chair Hotman shared a similar sentiment about preparing for for the crisis situation when when there's good times. So it's important we as the board continue to balance the short -term and long -term needs of the fund to ensure that we're ultimately protected. So thanks, Melissa. Thank you to you and the team for your work on this and I have no further questions. Although I did it just one thing the Vice Chair Hotman that you mentioned in our over draft discussion was faster settlement. You know I know I agree I think faster settlement is really important. I know there's a lot of credit unions that are currently trying to you know try to take advantage of FedNow and some of the some of the work there so you know I'd love to I'd love to talk more about that and I you know to the extent that credit unions want to become members of FedNow and and use that that service to increase the settlement times I think that's a really great development so you know open to further discussion on that.
Kyle Hauptman
I mentioned that for all the hype and abuse the crypto world gets, and it deserves a lot of it, stablecoins, instant settlement 24 hours a day are one of the main actual legit use cases that are used all over the world, remittances, people use them constantly, it's a 24 -7 actual settlement, it is pretty cool. That is the end of our agenda today, that being no further ado.
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